fluid-work IRC Logs-2012-04-06

[06:22:58 CDT(-0500)] <NickMayne> Hey Bosmon

[06:23:07 CDT(-0500)] <NickMayne> You still up?

[08:30:17 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord> just submitted my gsoc proposal http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/gauravaggarwal/43003 any feedback appreciapted (smile)

[11:03:08 CDT(-0500)] <asteig> GSoC question: I just noticed I attached the wrong proposal document (rough draft, oops!) to my email application last night. Is it alright to just send a correct right now?

[11:07:52 CDT(-0500)] <asteig> Also does anyone know colinclark's email? I would like to send my app to him directly instead of just info@.

[11:35:32 CDT(-0500)] <codercube> asteig : as I understand, it doesn't matter now what proposal you will send to an email, you should submit the final proposal on the GSoC website

[11:36:58 CDT(-0500)] <codercube> asteig : emails were used to discuss proposals before today, and most probably after, but the main proposal should now be on GSoC site

[11:38:44 CDT(-0500)] <asteig> codercube: Thanks, that version is correct. (smile)

[12:27:42 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord1> should I add my resume with proposal to be suubmitted in google melange ?

[12:27:50 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord1> gsoc website ?

[12:28:14 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord1> greggy : ping

[12:29:15 CDT(-0500)] <asteig> logiclord1: I emailed my resume and cover letter to the project mentors and info@. There's more information on the Ideas page about how to submit the proposal.

[12:30:01 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord1> asteig : same here. I confused should I copy-paste my resume on proposal to be submitted at gsoc website

[12:30:25 CDT(-0500)] <asteig> logiclord1: I just put the proposal itself into the proposal spot on the website.

[12:30:43 CDT(-0500)] <logiclord1> asteig : that's what I have done currently

[12:31:33 CDT(-0500)] <TheAlphaNerd> I put the cover letter at the top of the proposal

[12:31:38 CDT(-0500)] <TheAlphaNerd> with a page break between it and my proposal

[12:31:44 CDT(-0500)] <TheAlphaNerd> and supplied a link to LinkedIn for the resume

[12:31:45 CDT(-0500)] <TheAlphaNerd> myself

[15:01:17 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> So I guess now it's the long wait for the GSoC approval process...or lack there of.

[16:11:36 CDT(-0500)] <NicMayne> Hey Bosmon

[18:31:05 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi there travis_84_

[18:31:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I didn't get an update note for your proposal!

[18:31:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hopefully it is there

[18:31:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I will go and have a look

[18:33:09 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> I am not sure if there will be anything new we haven't discussed already

[18:34:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> That's fine

[18:34:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Did you make the submission?

[18:34:26 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> plus my infusion got in the way or me editing it and adding in my research resources

[18:34:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm still not finding it....

[18:35:17 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> I let me get it

[18:36:55 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/tmlove84/1

[18:37:10 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> please tell me I did it right...

[18:37:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah yes, you did

[18:37:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cool

[18:38:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just got buried in the list of 50 Indians wanting to edit Images in HTML5

[18:38:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'll make sure it gets priority attention : P

[18:38:47 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> sweet thanks

[18:39:26 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> I have a lot of reading still on SOP and RFP

[18:40:26 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> but I get the feeling we are not going to get rid of text

[18:40:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, Rome wasn't burnt in a day (smile)

[18:41:03 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We need to start at least thinking about the problem

[18:41:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Did I give you a link to Michael van der Vanter's thesis?

[18:42:10 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> nope

[18:42:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> He also concluded, after 3 years work, that we are not going to get rid of text : P

[18:42:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But still, we need to do it in the end.....

[18:43:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://homepage.mac.com/mlvdv/publications/user_interaction_in_languag.html

[18:43:08 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Link as technical report is near the bottom of the page

[18:43:26 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Pretty interesting guy... he now got absorbed by Oracle after working on Java for more than a decade

[18:44:07 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> Tangible Functional Programming http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJ8N0giqzw

[18:44:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I was trying to explain to him that JavaScript is clearly going to be "it" from now on - he was somewhat buying it, but his head was still spinning a bit

[18:44:39 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It's always desperately sad when these big projects crash to the ground, and "wastes" everyone's work....

[18:44:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It was the same with OS/2!

[18:45:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah wow

[18:45:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Conal

[18:45:13 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> He said the same thin

[18:45:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Fascinating-looking talk

[18:45:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'll watch it

[18:46:07 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> it blew me away

[18:46:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Conal is a very smart guy - biggest problem is that he doesn't realise that types need to disappear from our languages

[18:47:31 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> you mean like declaritives; int, float, etc?

[18:48:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Things like that - although the way Conal thinks of types being a Haskell-head, they are usually hugely more fruity than that

[18:48:26 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> ahh

[18:49:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> He hasn't got going yet, but in the comments I see this kind of thing: "type TV a = (Out a, a)"

[18:49:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> He has all the right goals.... "failure of composability" is the currently fashionable name for the greatest failure in software idioms

[18:49:40 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> He is saying all the right things in the introduction (smile)

[18:49:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "We are leaving out from humanity what all these people might say"

[18:50:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess for RFP you meant FRP?

[18:52:08 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> yes, sorry

[18:52:26 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Gah, it's great he got audience interaction, but I wish they wouldn't keep holding him up (smile)

[18:53:49 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2-gwtprUIA

[18:54:26 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> a goof one on a open interface design

[18:54:34 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So the Eric Raymond quote is crucial

[18:54:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And what Conal hasn't realised, is that JSON will fulfil the roles that text streams do for UNIX

[18:55:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I couldn't make any sense of the OpenInterface one (smile)

[18:56:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But JSON will do more than that, it will also provide the means for structuring the entire computation, and also for visualising it

[18:59:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Look at him with his dorky Windows desktop app!!

[18:59:14 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> That just says it all!

[19:00:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wow.... just realised this talk is 5 years old

[19:01:33 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> ya

[19:01:54 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> alittle old

[19:02:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, predates the JS revolution almost completely

[19:02:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Conal could be forgiven for not knowing that "JS is it" in 2007 : P

[19:02:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Interestingly I don't see that this stuff has gone anywhere, as far as he is concerned, in these 5 years

[19:03:03 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I don't see much about it in his blogs

[19:04:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yeah, traditional "fire and forget" academic product : P

[19:04:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I don't see anything about Eros following 2008

[19:04:52 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://conal.net/papers/Eros/eros.pdf

[19:04:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> This was it

[19:05:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> As I expected, a 10-page type-theory jungle (sad)

[19:06:19 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> haha

[19:06:54 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> can't say I didn't try (tongue)

[19:07:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> This reminds me of the same quote about regular expressions

[19:07:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "You have a problem - you decide to solve it using type theory - now you have two problems!"

[19:07:47 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> nice

[19:08:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://regex.info/blog/2006-09-15/247

[19:08:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Here's the trackdown of the original quote (smile)

[19:08:40 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But interestingly, touches on exactly our own problem

[19:08:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "in which Kelly sarcastically suggests something even more outlandishly silly (treating all data simply as a stream of bytes)"

[19:08:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> hahahahaha

[19:09:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wow, looks like this was originally said about AWK a full decade earlier!

[19:10:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Anyway, type-theoretic reasoning is the PERL and AWK of our new decade (smile)

[19:10:49 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> good to know

[19:11:22 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> well unfprtunatly I have to take off

[19:11:34 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ok - glad we tracked down your proposal

[19:12:14 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> ya thanks, least you got an entry for the project at all

[19:12:23 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> did anyone else?

[19:12:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm very glad

[19:12:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> No, yours was the only entry for the "interesting" projects : P

[19:12:55 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> nice

[19:12:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We didn't get any entries at all for the "visualising declaratively-structure programs" project (sad)

[19:13:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> structured

[19:13:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It would have been a nice partner for yours if anyone had taken it

[19:13:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess noone thought they knew what it was

[19:13:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Whereas everyone knows what it is when they look at an "HTML image editor" : P

[19:13:59 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> I think I touch on it abit with the GUI

[19:15:12 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> needing to find a way of translating or changing the rendering of the declarations

[19:16:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes well... it would have been nice if you had a "pal" : P

[19:17:36 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> yes indeed

[19:17:50 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> alright you have a good night

[19:18:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> You too

[19:18:03 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Thanks so much for signing up

[19:18:13 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It will certainly be an interesting project

[19:18:46 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> not a problem, I look forward to further brainstormings

[19:19:11 CDT(-0500)] <travis_84_> bye