Versions Compared

Key

  • This line was added.
  • This line was removed.
  • Formatting was changed.
Comment: Migrated to Confluence 4.0

Wiki Markup\[09:11:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; ] <michelled> Justin_o: how do you feel about different jslint declarations at the tops of files?</span> Wiki Markup

\[09:11:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; michelled: that&#039;s fine i guess. what were you planning on chaining?</span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> michelled: that's fine i guess. what were you planning on chaining?

[09:11:59 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; Justin] <michelled> Justin_o: Bosmon&#039;'s last pull request changes the jslint options for the DataBinding.js file</span> Wiki Markup\file

[09:13:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; seems like he&#039;s made it consistent with FluidIoC which is not the same as Fluid.js</span> Wiki Markup\] <michelled> seems like he's made it consistent with FluidIoC which is not the same as Fluid.js

[09:13:32 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; Justin_o: I suppose when we are planning on releasing 1.5 we can talk about consolidating all of it or not</span> Wiki Markup\] <michelled> Justin_o: I suppose when we are planning on releasing 1.5 we can talk about consolidating all of it or not

[09:13:46 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; if you&#039;re happy I&#039;m going to put this pull request in</span> Wiki Markup\] <michelled> if you're happy I'm going to put this pull request in

[09:15:24 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; michelled: I think those changes to the jslint comment should be okay</span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> michelled: I think those changes to the jslint comment should be okay

[09:16:06 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; anastasiac: the pull request that I&#039;m looking at right now adds some new features to the framework - in particular it seems that &#039;backwash&#039; support (as Bosmon calls it) will be available to everyone using a change applier</span> Wiki Markup\] <michelled> anastasiac: the pull request that I'm looking at right now adds some new features to the framework - in particular it seems that 'backwash' support (as Bosmon calls it) will be available to everyone using a change applier

[09:16:57 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;anastasiac&gt; thanks, michelled. There seem to be a few ] <anastasiac> thanks, michelled. There seem to be a few new(ish) things in the framework that need to be documented...</span>

Wiki Markup\[09:17:29 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; yep, and ] <michelled> yep, and Justin_o when we do get to a 1.5 we&#039;'ll need to have some conversation around new APIs</span> Wiki Markup\new APIs

[09:20:10 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; michelled: ] <Justin_o> michelled: okay.. makes sense.. i wonder if you should file a blocker for that so we don&#039;t forget</span> Wiki Markup\'t forget

[09:22:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; sure, I&#039;ll do that</span> Wiki Markup\] <michelled> sure, I'll do that

[09:23:15 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; michelled: thanks</span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> michelled: thanks

[09:40:15 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: do you happen to know much about optgroups and how AT&#039;s work with them</span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> clown: do you happen to know much about optgroups and how AT's work with them

[09:40:42 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; There&#039;s a question in the jQuery UI channel about it?</span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> There's a question in the jQuery UI channel about it?

[09:41:00 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; the &#034;?&#034; was a type-o <ac:emoticon ac:name="sad" /></span> Wiki Markup\] <Justin_o> the "?" was a type-o (sad)

[09:41:00 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: green">* clown trying to recall what optgroups are, Justin_o something to do with &lt;select&gt; with <select> elements?</span>

Wiki Markup\[09:41:10 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; <span class="nobr"><a href="] <Justin_o> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-author/the-optgroup-element.html" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-author/the-optgroup-element.html<sup><img class="rendericon" src="/images/icons/linkext7.gif" height="7" width="7" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/></sup></a></span></span> Wiki Markup\

[09:42:06 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: is this new for HTML5? Or were they present in HTML4

[09:42:06 07 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Justin_o: is this new for HTML5? Or were they present in HTML4</span> Wiki Markup\] <clown> ?

[09:42:34 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: not completely sure, but i think it's new to html5

[09:42:07 43 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; ?</span> Wiki Markup\[09:42:34 ] * clown wonders if browsers publish anything about them to the aapi...

[09:43:10 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: not completely sure, but i think it&#039;s new to html5</span> Wiki Markup\[09:42:43 ] <clown> well, if it's new, then it's less likely that browser do anything with them vis-a-vis the aapi.

[09:44:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: green">* clown wonders if browsers publish anything about them to the aapi...</span> Wiki Markup\[09:43:10 ] <clown> to answer the question: 1. find out if browsers do publish anything regarding optgroups to the aapi. 2. If not, then AT's do anything with them, they would have to look directly at the DOM.

[09:44:27 CDT(-0500)] <clown> oh, and 1a. Do AT's use the info published to the aapi for optgroups?

[09:44:34 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; well, if it&#039;s new, then it&#039;s less likely that browser do anything with them vis-a-vis the aapi.</span> Wiki Markup\[09:44:04 ] <Justin_o> clown: thanks.. looks like it was in html 4 as well

[09:48:49 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; to answer the question: 1. find out if browsers do publish anything regarding optgroups to the aapi. 2. If not, then AT&#039;s do anything with them, they would have to look directly at the DOM.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:44:27 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; oh, and 1a.  Do AT&#039;s use the info published to the aapi for optgroups?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:44:34 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: thanks.. looks like it was in html 4 as well</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:48:49 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: what is the tool you use to check that again?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:52:08 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; morning avtar</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:52:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; key kasper</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:52:51 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; ..so I&#039;m finally finding some time to look into the wysiwig for the wiki</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:53:28 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; but forgot what distro I should install…</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:53:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; something ubuntu, but 10.04 or something brand new like 11.10 or the like?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:54:47 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Justin_o:  check the AAPI?  On GNOME I use Accerciser.  On WinXP, I use Accprobe.  Also, If your browser is FF, you can check using the DOMInspector plug-in.  The plug-in is slightly easier to use than the inspector apps.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; avtar ^</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:05 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; kasper: 10.04 should be fine</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:14 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; coolio, thanks</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; if you use vagrant then it&#039;ll install that release by default</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:21 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: thanks</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:36 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: does the firefox plugin work on mac?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:37 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; oooh, nice</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:41 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; less work for the kasper</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:46 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:55:48 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; kasper: you might want to ping colin though</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:56:26 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; regarding mediawiki related work</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:56:53 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;avtar&gt; i&#039;m not sure what the long term plans are for the wiki</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:57:40 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: any chance you might like to help me write up wiki page one how to use those tools</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:58:51 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Justin_o:  a small chance…  Gotta go to a meeting in a couple minutes.  Can you give me an idea of the timeline?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[09:59:59 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: I&#039;d imagine that the jQuery ui guys would like to have something to look at asap.. Would it help if i got a page started, and then you can fill in the necessary details</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:00:05 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Oh, just saw this:  &#034;clown: does the firefox plugin work on mac?&#034;, Jusin_o.  Alas, nope — it works, but it does not show any a11y info.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:00:17 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;kasper&gt; avtar: yeah - I&#039;ll give him a poke once he gets on! thanks!</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:00:42 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: i  was afraid of that.. oh well. by the way is it just me or does the Mac Accessibility inspector not show anything for safari</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:00:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; ?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:01:13 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Justin_o:  dunno.  I rarely use Safari.  And I never try to do anything with it in terms of a11y.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:01:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /> okay</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:01:31 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; maybe  I should...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:01:40 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; anyhow, meeting time.  bbl</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:20:28 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown_mtg: I&#039;ve started a page at <span class="nobr"><a href="http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools<sup><img class="rendericon" src="/images/icons/linkext7.gif" height="7" width="7" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/></sup></a></span></span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:20:41 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; it&#039;s pretty basic at the moment</span>

Wiki Markup
\[10:36:19 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; fluid-everyone: couldn&#039;t get into adobe connect, my update is that I&#039;m working on decapod ui still.. have been a bit distracted by looking into tools for accessibility checking for jQuery Ui… started a wiki page for it <span class="nobr"><a href="http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools<sup><img class="rendericon" src="/images/icons/linkext7.gif" height="7" width="7" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/></sup></a></span></span>

Wiki Markup
\[11:42:30 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;clown&gt; Justin_o:  added some links and info about how to use Accerciser to that page.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[11:44:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: thanks</span>

Wiki Markup
\[11:45:21 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; clown: if you have any tips on what sort of things to be looking for and etc, when using those tools, you could add it to that page too</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:23:35 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; jhung1 : I am Aashray, I have been experimenting with your GSoC idea of making an HTML5 image editor, is now a good time to talk about it with you?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:24:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; aashray: sure.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:25:49 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; Hi, I have been talking to Justin regarding the project and I have done a couple of demos related to it as well.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:26:29 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; Yes aashray I saw them. They look promising!</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:26:36 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; Im not sure if you have seen the demos or not, but i wanted to talk to you if added certain functionality to it would be benificial</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:26:53 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; great to hear that...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:27:26 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; so firstly Justin told me that you too have some ideas for the functionality that can be added</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:28:23 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; I thought that adding Local Storage supports for saving an Editing Image (as shown in my demo) would be good, it would also easy the load on the server</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:30:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; secondly i thought that given the GSoC time-frame , I feel I could add more functionality like Blur effects, drawing over the images, and applying more filters on the images</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:33:38 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; aashray, give me a second to think.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:34:25 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; and another important query I had was, I&#039;m new to Fluid Infusion , actually I will be having a look at it today, so i wanted to know if this project would be integrated with it.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:34:30 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; sure</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:36:05 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray&gt; I&#039;m sorry for the typos in my earlier messages... would you like me to retype them?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:39:48 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; aashray: as for functionality, since Decapod is concerned with digitization of books, tools related to fixing or improving photographed book pages will be beneficial.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:40:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; so tools like a clone / stamp tool would be good.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:40:27 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; oh okay ...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:40:34 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; Finer controls, undo / redo,</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:40:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; alright.. yes that makes sense</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:41:33 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; as for incorporating infusion, Decapod is a Fluid project and we try to use as many Infusion components as possible.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:41:48 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; where appropriate of course.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:42:03 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung1&gt; Justin_o would probably have a better idea of how that will fit together.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:43:52 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; oh okay .... so would you suggest that I start having a look at Infusion or do I concentrate on how to get done the existing requirements first</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:44:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: ideally you&#039;ll be making use of fluid infusion to write your code.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:44:30 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; oh alright</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:47:34 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; alright, so I&#039;ll start going through fluidproject wiki and get familiar with Infusion</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:47:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; over the next few days</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:49:21 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; if I need any help understanding something or with the contributor license I will contact you</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:50:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; I also had another doubt</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:53:45 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; the modifications done on the Image, will need to be saved on the server, so does the back end for that also needs to be done along with this project or has that already been implemented previously?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:53:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; need*</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:56:31 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: While there is not specific server side implementation in place yet to receive the transformation data, it isn&#039;t necessary to make one. If you would like to make something simple as a demo or proof of concept you are more than welcome to.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[12:58:00 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; sure , I would be happy to do so</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:02:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; Do you have any feedback on the demo or any advise on what i can work on in the next few days to make myself familiar and ready ?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:03:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: in terms of infusion go through the documentation there and start to get a feel for what it is and how it works</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:03:43 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; you can see the code at <span class="nobr"><a href="https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion<sup><img class="rendericon" src="/images/icons/linkext7.gif" height="7" width="7" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/></sup></a></span></span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:04:20 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; sure, that&#039;ll be great, will get to it right away.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:05:09 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: i think i sent you the links to some documentation pages, they should all be on our wiki though wiki.fluidprojecct.org</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:05:16 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; wiki.fluidproject.org</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:06:46 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; yes i have those links, will go through the documentation and see the source code as well, will try and get familiar with it as soon as possible</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:07:13 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; Also, for the draft that I am making for this GSoC proposal , is there a specific template.. or a reference , that you would like me to follow?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:10:36 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: not particularly.. there should be some info on GSoC site to help you with that though.. check this page out <span class="nobr"><a href="http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/<sup><img class="rendericon" src="/images/icons/linkext7.gif" height="7" width="7" align="absmiddle" alt="" border="0"/></sup></a></span></span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:15:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; yes .. thanks</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:15:47 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; thanks a lot Justin_o and jhung</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:16:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;aashray_&gt; I will work on the suggestions and help you gave me</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:17:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; aashray_: no problem</span>

Wiki Markup
\[13:24:53 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jhung&gt; no problem aashray_</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:31:26 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Bosmon: What do you know of math notation writing tools?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:50:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; jameswy - I know that one should use ones based on the TeX syntax and rendering engine <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:50:48 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; I know that the guy who runs the stackexchange.* site is particularly punctillious about how his stuff gets rendered</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:50:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And so has come up with some pretty good solutions</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:51:08 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; Bosmon: do you know of any GUI tools?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:51:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Unfortunately it&#039;s one of those classic cases where none of the tools which are &#034;easy to use&#034; produce particularly good results</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:51:49 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Bosmon: it&#039;s an inherently difficult problem.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:51:54 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; I don&#039;t... unfortunately there are as many good GUI tools for creating maths formulas as there are for creating good HTML markup : P</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:52:19 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Interesting comparison...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:52:24 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Mm.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:52:43 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Microsoft probably spent a huge amount of resources producing the formula editor in Word, and at the end of the day what it produces is still pretty crummy</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:52:51 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Agreed.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:52:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Even though it has lots of little boxes you can click in to make new things etc.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:53:00 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; MathType probably spent plenty too, and it&#039;s still terrible.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:53:07 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And that&#039;s probably the most &#034;evolved&#034; GUI formula editor that I know of</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:53:24 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; 40 years later, there really doesn&#039;t seem much alternative for learning how the TeX notation works</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:53:32 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Which project is this in connection with?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:54:09 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Floe.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:54:15 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Specifically, the authoring tool.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:54:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Interesting</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:54:43 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; I guess most of the formulas that our authors meet will be pretty simple ones</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:55:14 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Bosmon: I was thinking that too, but they need it to be good for <strong>at least</strong> up to grade 12.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:55:19 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Perhaps we can provide a &#034;shallower slope&#034; that will get them up the onramp to TeX, with a few simple examples, and automatic handling of things like subscripts, superscripts, greek letters, etc with a palette based scheme</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:55:36 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Anything more complicated than that we can just point them at some good TeX references</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:55:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; And by that point, you&#039;d need more than just sub/superscripts and Greek signifiers... you&#039;d need integrals, differentials, matrices, iterative sums, a multitude of operators...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:56:15 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; After all, they&#039;ll need to figure out how to do it properly... after all, you can&#039;t even ask a question on math.stackexchange without some of these basic skills <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:56:24 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; We&#039;d be doing them a disservice if we didn&#039;t help them out in this area</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:57:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; A very simple scheme would probably get us up to 8th grade or so</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:58:56 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; TeX, being based on a kind of &#034;markup&#034;, also has the advantage of being inherently more accessible</span>

Wiki Markup
\[14:59:07 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; I believe there are a number of solutions around for &#034;speaking&#034; equations, etc.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:00:37 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Although as with most of these things, they&#039;re something you really need to get used to....</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:00:48 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; &#034;Speaking superscripts in a higher pitched voice&#034;, etc : P</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:01:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Yes.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:01:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; There are also some solutions around writing/mousing it out, and then OCR-ing it in.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:01:52 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; But I&#039;m not sure how accurate those solutions are.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:02:03 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; I&#039;d imagine they are awful</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:03:20 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; The results from trying to understand the structure of a random mathematical formula from an OCR are going to be pretty messy.... although ironically, if you know that it was TeX that produced the image in the first place, you can often do quite well <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:04:28 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Bosmon: So, all we need to do is provide a constraint that users write in perfect TeX-like rendering?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:06:07 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; exactly</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:07:55 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Wikipedia also uses TeX-based rendering, so getting authors familiar with this scheme I think is a basic part of preparing them as citizens dealing with mathematical content on the web, jameswy</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:09:54 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; fluid-everyone: anyone see an issue with me pushing the video player branch to the project repo?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:09:54 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; Well.</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:10:13 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; since we are now using pull requests instead of directly hacking it just seems to make sense to me</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:10:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;jameswy&gt; I can&#039;t express how immensely happy users would be about this...</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:12:37 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; yura, Bosmon: does primeCacheFromResources use demands.. i seem to be getting some errors in the console due to the template being fetched from the wrong path</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:13:04 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - it doesn&#039;t</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:13:10 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; It is a &#034;well-known architectural fault&#034;</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:13:25 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;yura&gt; :&#039;(</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:14:00 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; that&#039;s so sad <ac:emoticon ac:name="sad" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:14:14 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;yura&gt; :&#039;(</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:15:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; yura, Bosmon: any good workarounds for that?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:15:49 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - none really... you will just have to prime the cache for everything you can think of</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:08 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And live with the errors due to the ones which are not found</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:15 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: okay, but it will still show errors in the console</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; okay</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:31 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Also, you can just disuse primeCacheFromResources entirely</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:38 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; It doesn&#039;t actually do anything particularly subtle</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:16:58 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And I think we discovered in CSpace that the few milliseconds advantage it gives you in an &#034;early start&#034; are not enormously valuable</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:17:14 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; So you might decide to just wait until enough of your component has initialised so that you know what templates you need</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:17:21 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; This is why UIOptions, for example, is designed the way it is</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:17:27 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; With a &#034;templateLoader&#034; component at top level</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:29:32 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: okay.. maybe i&#039;ll just drop primeCacheFromResources for now</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:44:33 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;michelled&gt; alexn, anastasiac, cindyli: can we meet at 4:00 tomorrow to assess our progress and task next week&#039;s work?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:44:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;anastasiac&gt; sure</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:44:53 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;cindyli&gt; ok, michelled</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:46:57 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon, yura: can you use amalgamateClasses without primeCacheFromResources..</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:47:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; since it doesn&#039;t seem to find my templates from the subcomponents</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:47:18 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - yes, it is fine</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:47:39 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - &#034;find&#034;?</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:48:16 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Our standard solution for this at the moment is to position any components which deal with templates as supercomponents, rather than as subcomponents</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:48:31 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; In this way you can match the load order of I/O to the creation order of components</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:14 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: what should i do in the case where i have a set of renderer components that fetch their own templates</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:25 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - you must make sure that they are somehow fetched first</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:33 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; If it is not done by primeCache, it needs to be done by some other means</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:37 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; i.e. by you : P</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; currently these are all subcomponents.. and i was trying to use amalgamateClasses to fetch all the templates in the parent component</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:50 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - yes, that&#039;s right</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:49:59 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; okay, but it isn&#039;t fetching them <ac:emoticon ac:name="sad" /></span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:02 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; but you need to push the information about what the path of the template is up into a separate component</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:13 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; okay.. how do i do that</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:17 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Essentially, from the point of view of the components, the template needs to be fetched twice</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:29 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Well, look at UIOptions.js for an example of this &#034;templateLoader&#034; pattern</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:43 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; At the very top level is a component which holds all paths for templates</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:50:58 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; It ensures they are all fetched first, and only then does the rest of the subtree start to constrct</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:51:01 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; construct</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:51:17 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; After that, the renderer component makes use of the SAME URL injected down into it from the templateLoader</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:51:28 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; But this time, when it asks for it to be fetched, it is fetched synchronously, since it is now in the cache</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:52:58 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; okay.. i see.. makes sense.. I don&#039;t suppose i could get the path from the subcomponent instead of the other way around..</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:53:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; since i figure the subcomponent should know where it&#039;s own template is</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:53:52 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: ^</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:54:09 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - you can&#039;t get the path from the subcomponent since it hasn&#039;t constructed yet</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:54:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And if it constructs, it must have the markup already present</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:54:31 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: it&#039;s impossible then</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:54:35 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; yura was complaining of just this issue in the other channel</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:54:44 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; But until we have RENDERER ANTIGENS, it is impossible</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:55:06 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Once that part of the framework is finished, we will have two-phase construction possible for renderer components</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:55:37 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; But since the construction is now just single-phase, we need to take care of all of these ordering issues manually</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:56:01 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: cool.. this future version sounds really great.. until then though i&#039;ll go with the manual management</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:56:07 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; At least in this case, there is a kind of semi-natural way of using IoC createOnEvent to do the scheduling, but it still means pulling the template information up out into a separate component</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:56:38 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Which as you say, isn&#039;t completely satisfactory, since, as you say, a component should really be able to control which templates it has through its own resolution</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:56:59 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; on the other hand, there are at least SOME benefits to this kind of system, since it means that all the templates in a tree are held in a single place where users can configure them easily</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:57:01 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; Bosmon: is it bad practice for my top level component to need to fetch a template too.. should all those things be subcomponents</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:57:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; Justin_o - well, do look at the UIOptions templateLoader - you should be able to reuse most of it</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:57:26 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Justin_o&gt; the top level one is for the bits of markup for where the other templates render into.. maybe this can just be in the standard markup though</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:58:01 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; In theory, if the VERY top level of your tree contains a single component which governs ALL templates, everything will be fine</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:58:12 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; But it means inverting your component containment structure a little</span>

Wiki Markup
\[15:58:22 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; And pushing down the thing which you call &#034;the real component&#034; to be a subcomponent</span>

Wiki Markup\[15:58:33 CDT(-0500)\] <span style="color: black"> &lt;Bosmon&gt; In the same way that UIOptions itself is now a subcomponent of a thing called &#034;UIOptionsLoader&#034;</span>] <Justin_o> clown: what is the tool you use to check that again?

[09:52:08 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> morning avtar

[09:52:18 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> key kasper

[09:52:51 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> ..so I'm finally finding some time to look into the wysiwig for the wiki

[09:53:28 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> but forgot what distro I should install…

[09:53:50 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> something ubuntu, but 10.04 or something brand new like 11.10 or the like?

[09:54:47 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: check the AAPI? On GNOME I use Accerciser. On WinXP, I use Accprobe. Also, If your browser is FF, you can check using the DOMInspector plug-in. The plug-in is slightly easier to use than the inspector apps.

[09:55:02 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> avtar ^

[09:55:05 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> kasper: 10.04 should be fine

[09:55:14 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> coolio, thanks

[09:55:18 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> if you use vagrant then it'll install that release by default

[09:55:21 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: thanks

[09:55:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: does the firefox plugin work on mac?

[09:55:37 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> oooh, nice

[09:55:41 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> less work for the kasper

[09:55:46 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> (smile)

[09:55:48 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> kasper: you might want to ping colin though

[09:56:26 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> regarding mediawiki related work

[09:56:53 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> i'm not sure what the long term plans are for the wiki

[09:57:40 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: any chance you might like to help me write up wiki page one how to use those tools

[09:58:51 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: a small chance… Gotta go to a meeting in a couple minutes. Can you give me an idea of the timeline?

[09:59:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: I'd imagine that the jQuery ui guys would like to have something to look at asap.. Would it help if i got a page started, and then you can fill in the necessary details

[10:00:05 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Oh, just saw this: "clown: does the firefox plugin work on mac?", Jusin_o. Alas, nope — it works, but it does not show any a11y info.

[10:00:17 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> avtar: yeah - I'll give him a poke once he gets on! thanks!

[10:00:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: i was afraid of that.. oh well. by the way is it just me or does the Mac Accessibility inspector not show anything for safari

[10:00:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> ?

[10:01:13 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: dunno. I rarely use Safari. And I never try to do anything with it in terms of a11y.

[10:01:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: (smile) okay

[10:01:31 CDT(-0500)] <clown> maybe I should...

[10:01:40 CDT(-0500)] <clown> anyhow, meeting time. bbl

[10:20:28 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown_mtg: I've started a page at http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools

[10:20:41 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> it's pretty basic at the moment

[10:36:19 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> fluid-everyone: couldn't get into adobe connect, my update is that I'm working on decapod ui still.. have been a bit distracted by looking into tools for accessibility checking for jQuery Ui… started a wiki page for it http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Accessibility+Inspection+Tools

[11:42:30 CDT(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: added some links and info about how to use Accerciser to that page.

[11:44:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: thanks

[11:45:21 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> clown: if you have any tips on what sort of things to be looking for and etc, when using those tools, you could add it to that page too

[12:23:35 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> jhung1 : I am Aashray, I have been experimenting with your GSoC idea of making an HTML5 image editor, is now a good time to talk about it with you?

[12:24:56 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> aashray: sure.

[12:25:49 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> Hi, I have been talking to Justin regarding the project and I have done a couple of demos related to it as well.

[12:26:29 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> Yes aashray I saw them. They look promising!

[12:26:36 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> Im not sure if you have seen the demos or not, but i wanted to talk to you if added certain functionality to it would be benificial

[12:26:53 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> great to hear that...

[12:27:26 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> so firstly Justin told me that you too have some ideas for the functionality that can be added

[12:28:23 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> I thought that adding Local Storage supports for saving an Editing Image (as shown in my demo) would be good, it would also easy the load on the server

[12:30:04 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> secondly i thought that given the GSoC time-frame , I feel I could add more functionality like Blur effects, drawing over the images, and applying more filters on the images

[12:33:38 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> aashray, give me a second to think.

[12:34:25 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> and another important query I had was, I'm new to Fluid Infusion , actually I will be having a look at it today, so i wanted to know if this project would be integrated with it.

[12:34:30 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> sure

[12:36:05 CDT(-0500)] <aashray> I'm sorry for the typos in my earlier messages... would you like me to retype them?

[12:39:48 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> aashray: as for functionality, since Decapod is concerned with digitization of books, tools related to fixing or improving photographed book pages will be beneficial.

[12:40:04 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> so tools like a clone / stamp tool would be good.

[12:40:27 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> oh okay ...

[12:40:34 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> Finer controls, undo / redo,

[12:40:50 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> alright.. yes that makes sense

[12:41:33 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> as for incorporating infusion, Decapod is a Fluid project and we try to use as many Infusion components as possible.

[12:41:48 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> where appropriate of course.

[12:42:03 CDT(-0500)] <jhung1> Justin_o would probably have a better idea of how that will fit together.

[12:43:52 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> oh okay .... so would you suggest that I start having a look at Infusion or do I concentrate on how to get done the existing requirements first

[12:44:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: ideally you'll be making use of fluid infusion to write your code.

[12:44:30 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> oh alright

[12:47:34 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> alright, so I'll start going through fluidproject wiki and get familiar with Infusion

[12:47:44 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> over the next few days

[12:49:21 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> if I need any help understanding something or with the contributor license I will contact you

[12:50:56 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> I also had another doubt

[12:53:45 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> the modifications done on the Image, will need to be saved on the server, so does the back end for that also needs to be done along with this project or has that already been implemented previously?

[12:53:56 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> need*

[12:56:31 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: While there is not specific server side implementation in place yet to receive the transformation data, it isn't necessary to make one. If you would like to make something simple as a demo or proof of concept you are more than welcome to.

[12:58:00 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> sure , I would be happy to do so

[13:02:02 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> Do you have any feedback on the demo or any advise on what i can work on in the next few days to make myself familiar and ready ?

[13:03:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: in terms of infusion go through the documentation there and start to get a feel for what it is and how it works

[13:03:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> you can see the code at https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion

[13:04:20 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> sure, that'll be great, will get to it right away.

[13:05:09 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: i think i sent you the links to some documentation pages, they should all be on our wiki though wiki.fluidprojecct.org

[13:05:16 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> wiki.fluidproject.org

[13:06:46 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> yes i have those links, will go through the documentation and see the source code as well, will try and get familiar with it as soon as possible

[13:07:13 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> Also, for the draft that I am making for this GSoC proposal , is there a specific template.. or a reference , that you would like me to follow?

[13:10:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: not particularly.. there should be some info on GSoC site to help you with that though.. check this page out http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/

[13:15:44 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> yes .. thanks

[13:15:47 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> thanks a lot Justin_o and jhung

[13:16:22 CDT(-0500)] <aashray_> I will work on the suggestions and help you gave me

[13:17:50 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> aashray_: no problem

[13:24:53 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> no problem aashray_

[14:31:26 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Bosmon: What do you know of math notation writing tools?

[14:50:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> jameswy - I know that one should use ones based on the TeX syntax and rendering engine (smile)

[14:50:48 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I know that the guy who runs the stackexchange.* site is particularly punctillious about how his stuff gets rendered

[14:50:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And so has come up with some pretty good solutions

[14:51:08 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon: do you know of any GUI tools?

[14:51:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Unfortunately it's one of those classic cases where none of the tools which are "easy to use" produce particularly good results

[14:51:49 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Bosmon: it's an inherently difficult problem.

[14:51:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I don't... unfortunately there are as many good GUI tools for creating maths formulas as there are for creating good HTML markup : P

[14:52:19 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Interesting comparison...

[14:52:24 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Mm.

[14:52:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Microsoft probably spent a huge amount of resources producing the formula editor in Word, and at the end of the day what it produces is still pretty crummy

[14:52:51 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Agreed.

[14:52:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Even though it has lots of little boxes you can click in to make new things etc.

[14:53:00 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> MathType probably spent plenty too, and it's still terrible.

[14:53:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And that's probably the most "evolved" GUI formula editor that I know of

[14:53:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> 40 years later, there really doesn't seem much alternative for learning how the TeX notation works

[14:53:32 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which project is this in connection with?

[14:54:09 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Floe.

[14:54:15 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Specifically, the authoring tool.

[14:54:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Interesting

[14:54:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess most of the formulas that our authors meet will be pretty simple ones

[14:55:14 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Bosmon: I was thinking that too, but they need it to be good for at least up to grade 12.

[14:55:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps we can provide a "shallower slope" that will get them up the onramp to TeX, with a few simple examples, and automatic handling of things like subscripts, superscripts, greek letters, etc with a palette based scheme

[14:55:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Anything more complicated than that we can just point them at some good TeX references

[14:55:56 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> And by that point, you'd need more than just sub/superscripts and Greek signifiers... you'd need integrals, differentials, matrices, iterative sums, a multitude of operators...

[14:56:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> After all, they'll need to figure out how to do it properly... after all, you can't even ask a question on math.stackexchange without some of these basic skills (smile)

[14:56:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We'd be doing them a disservice if we didn't help them out in this area

[14:57:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> A very simple scheme would probably get us up to 8th grade or so

[14:58:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> TeX, being based on a kind of "markup", also has the advantage of being inherently more accessible

[14:59:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I believe there are a number of solutions around for "speaking" equations, etc.

[15:00:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although as with most of these things, they're something you really need to get used to....

[15:00:48 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "Speaking superscripts in a higher pitched voice", etc : P

[15:01:18 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Yes.

[15:01:44 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> There are also some solutions around writing/mousing it out, and then OCR-ing it in.

[15:01:52 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> But I'm not sure how accurate those solutions are.

[15:02:03 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'd imagine they are awful

[15:03:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The results from trying to understand the structure of a random mathematical formula from an OCR are going to be pretty messy.... although ironically, if you know that it was TeX that produced the image in the first place, you can often do quite well (smile)

[15:04:28 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Bosmon: So, all we need to do is provide a constraint that users write in perfect TeX-like rendering?

[15:06:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> exactly

[15:07:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wikipedia also uses TeX-based rendering, so getting authors familiar with this scheme I think is a basic part of preparing them as citizens dealing with mathematical content on the web, jameswy

[15:09:54 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> fluid-everyone: anyone see an issue with me pushing the video player branch to the project repo?

[15:09:54 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Well.

[15:10:13 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> since we are now using pull requests instead of directly hacking it just seems to make sense to me

[15:10:50 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> I can't express how immensely happy users would be about this...

[15:12:37 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> yura, Bosmon: does primeCacheFromResources use demands.. i seem to be getting some errors in the console due to the template being fetched from the wrong path

[15:13:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - it doesn't

[15:13:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It is a "well-known architectural fault"

[15:13:25 CDT(-0500)] <yura> :'(

[15:14:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> that's so sad (sad)

[15:14:14 CDT(-0500)] <yura> :'(

[15:15:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> yura, Bosmon: any good workarounds for that?

[15:15:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - none really... you will just have to prime the cache for everything you can think of

[15:16:08 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And live with the errors due to the ones which are not found

[15:16:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay, but it will still show errors in the console

[15:16:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay

[15:16:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Also, you can just disuse primeCacheFromResources entirely

[15:16:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It doesn't actually do anything particularly subtle

[15:16:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And I think we discovered in CSpace that the few milliseconds advantage it gives you in an "early start" are not enormously valuable

[15:17:14 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So you might decide to just wait until enough of your component has initialised so that you know what templates you need

[15:17:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> This is why UIOptions, for example, is designed the way it is

[15:17:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> With a "templateLoader" component at top level

[15:29:32 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay.. maybe i'll just drop primeCacheFromResources for now

[15:44:33 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> alexn, anastasiac, cindyli: can we meet at 4:00 tomorrow to assess our progress and task next week's work?

[15:44:50 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> sure

[15:44:53 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> ok, michelled

[15:46:57 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon, yura: can you use amalgamateClasses without primeCacheFromResources..

[15:47:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> since it doesn't seem to find my templates from the subcomponents

[15:47:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes, it is fine

[15:47:39 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - "find"?

[15:48:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Our standard solution for this at the moment is to position any components which deal with templates as supercomponents, rather than as subcomponents

[15:48:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In this way you can match the load order of I/O to the creation order of components

[15:49:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: what should i do in the case where i have a set of renderer components that fetch their own templates

[15:49:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - you must make sure that they are somehow fetched first

[15:49:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> If it is not done by primeCache, it needs to be done by some other means

[15:49:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> i.e. by you : P

[15:49:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> currently these are all subcomponents.. and i was trying to use amalgamateClasses to fetch all the templates in the parent component

[15:49:50 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes, that's right

[15:49:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay, but it isn't fetching them (sad)

[15:50:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> but you need to push the information about what the path of the template is up into a separate component

[15:50:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay.. how do i do that

[15:50:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Essentially, from the point of view of the components, the template needs to be fetched twice

[15:50:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, look at UIOptions.js for an example of this "templateLoader" pattern

[15:50:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> At the very top level is a component which holds all paths for templates

[15:50:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It ensures they are all fetched first, and only then does the rest of the subtree start to constrct

[15:51:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> construct

[15:51:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> After that, the renderer component makes use of the SAME URL injected down into it from the templateLoader

[15:51:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But this time, when it asks for it to be fetched, it is fetched synchronously, since it is now in the cache

[15:52:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay.. i see.. makes sense.. I don't suppose i could get the path from the subcomponent instead of the other way around..

[15:53:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> since i figure the subcomponent should know where it's own template is

[15:53:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: ^

[15:54:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - you can't get the path from the subcomponent since it hasn't constructed yet

[15:54:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And if it constructs, it must have the markup already present

[15:54:31 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: it's impossible then

[15:54:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> yura was complaining of just this issue in the other channel

[15:54:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But until we have RENDERER ANTIGENS, it is impossible

[15:55:06 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Once that part of the framework is finished, we will have two-phase construction possible for renderer components

[15:55:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But since the construction is now just single-phase, we need to take care of all of these ordering issues manually

[15:56:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: cool.. this future version sounds really great.. until then though i'll go with the manual management

[15:56:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> At least in this case, there is a kind of semi-natural way of using IoC createOnEvent to do the scheduling, but it still means pulling the template information up out into a separate component

[15:56:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which as you say, isn't completely satisfactory, since, as you say, a component should really be able to control which templates it has through its own resolution

[15:56:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> on the other hand, there are at least SOME benefits to this kind of system, since it means that all the templates in a tree are held in a single place where users can configure them easily

[15:57:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: is it bad practice for my top level component to need to fetch a template too.. should all those things be subcomponents

[15:57:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - well, do look at the UIOptions templateLoader - you should be able to reuse most of it

[15:57:26 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> the top level one is for the bits of markup for where the other templates render into.. maybe this can just be in the standard markup though

[15:58:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In theory, if the VERY top level of your tree contains a single component which governs ALL templates, everything will be fine

[15:58:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But it means inverting your component containment structure a little

[15:58:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And pushing down the thing which you call "the real component" to be a subcomponent

[15:58:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the same way that UIOptions itself is now a subcomponent of a thing called "UIOptionsLoader"

[16:01:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: I haven't been able to find one, so I'm assuming there isn't a built in event to signal when a component has finished initializing

[16:01:46 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> is there?

[16:01:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - there isn't one - you will need to fire your own event

[16:01:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> There is another JIRA for that issue too (smile)

[16:02:11 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> (smile) glad to know it's on the list