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[09:56:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: for setting priorities in IoC, can i have a negative priority</span>

[09:56:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> ?</span>

[09:57:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> i think so</span>

[09:57:15 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> thanks.. can i mix that with "last"</span>

[09:57:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> i would step into code though to see what takes precedence</span>

[10:06:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: thanjks</span>

[10:06:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> thanks</span>

[10:10:00 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: i didn't step through the code, but a quick test looks like last wins</span>

[10:10:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> cools</span>

[11:49:05 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> hey kasper</span>

[11:49:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> i've made the required changes to the gpii wiki</span>

[12:58:15 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <kasper> avtar - you're a hero!!!</span>

[12:58:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <kasper> thanks a lot</span>

[13:04:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> michelled: Here's a fairly concrete example of schema.org's approach to micro data: <a href="http://schema.org/Person" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://schema.org/Person</a></span>

[13:05:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> Looks to me like the general approach is based on a proposed W3C Microdata spec: <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html</a></span>

[13:06:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: green">* clown toots own horn: <a href="http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/#rna11y.zoom-settings" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/#rna11y.zoom-settings</a></span>

[13:12:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> clown: Yay!</span>

[13:12:36 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> I enjoyed seeing the dialog in Fedora 17 alpha</span>

[13:12:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> very nice</span>

[13:15:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <michelled> thx colinclark</span>

[13:40:52 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> kasper: np</span>

[13:52:02 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> fluid-everyone: the community meetings is on now.. yura is talking about node.js</span>

[15:09:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> New to an irc but saw this project at GSoC and wanted to introduce myself</span>

[15:12:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hi travis_84, welcome</span>

[15:13:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Which project(s) are you interested in?</span>

[15:14:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> Hi. Well the whole program itself is awesome, it hits close to home more and more</span>

[15:15:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Glad you like it <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:19:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> but there are quite a few projects I want to help on (GSoC accepted or not). The one within my major is the ATutor chat redesign. But I am going big and studying up on something I tried with voice recognition; "Towards non-visual/accessible programming"</span>

[15:21:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - that's great</span>

[15:21:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I was disappointed there had been so little interest in that project so far, which I am sure is one of the most interesting</span>

[15:23:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> it really is</span>

[15:24:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There's little enough work being done even in alternative visual methods of programming</span>

[15:24:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Most people seemed to get discouraged after the 80s</span>

[15:25:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> especially with touch gestures becoming mainstream, gesture programming with possible voice support sounds possible</span>

[15:25:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> You may be interested in this PhD thesis that was published in 92... <a href="http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/techreports/ucb/text/CSD-93-726.pdf" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/techreports/ucb/text/CSD-93-726.pdf</a></span>

[15:25:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> This guy is now at Oracle, but he is generally discouraged : P</span>

[15:26:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is a little work at Microsoft in using the tablet form factor for some kinds of coding</span>

[15:26:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But it is mostly pretty simplistic stuff which produces lists of rules for actors in games to follow</span>

[15:30:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> hmm, I will add that to my reading lol. I think the first step would be to create a visual language to represent the programming functions and elements?</span>

[15:30:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - it may well be easier to start with some kind of "visual intermediate", yes</span>

[15:30:52 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Especially if you are a sighted user yourself : P</span>

[15:32:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> True, at least once we have a visual context we have a place to start for the hearing only too</span>

[15:32:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Some other people who are interested in the project are Clayton Lewis, a professor here at CU, and T.V. Raman, a blind developer who is a research scientist at Google</span>

[15:33:21 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> In talking to Raman, Clayton noticed an interesting idea he had, in treating elements of a non-visual interface as proxies for "queries" which you could say a sighted user runs automatically</span>

[15:33:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So he saw that Raman had made a system where he could play games like "Bejeweled" by use of these kinds of "queries"</span>

[15:34:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But an important part of the system is that the user could manage and edit this set of queries to suit their own use of the system for a particular task</span>

[15:34:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> wow, Raman sounds like a good person to talk to. thanks</span>

[15:34:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Raman is very cool - although very busy : P</span>

[15:35:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But he's probably the person in the world who knows most about this kind of system in practice, since he has to use them every day</span>

[15:36:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And after this, you could perhaps bind them to hot-keys so you could play the game at a reasonable kind of rate after you got used to it.... "Find the first jewel in the column to the right of the cursor scanning downwards that is blue", for example, could be one of these kinds of queries</span>

[15:36:26 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But you might not be able to find out what kinds of queries you wanted until you had played the game for a bit</span>

[15:37:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, this kind of thing could eventually be the basis of a system for producing "code"... but so far, any work you do on this will be a world first <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:38:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> all this said, i do feel extremely under qualified... I am going for it anyway, I have been self taught and learn fast. This is definitely something I want to be apart of either way</span>

[15:40:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - you are already a world expert on the subject <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:40:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> It will be great to have you involved</span>

[15:40:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, this project of Raman's using "last generation technologies" might have some ideas which can be plundered... <a href="http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/emacspeak.html" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/emacspeak.html</a></span>

[15:42:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But of course emacs is based completely on the idea of streams of text characters as the ultimate abstraction for code... which ultimately isn't going to be good enough</span>

[15:42:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Still, it is in some ways the "Rolls Royce" of editors, and some people feel that it's even a possibly sane approach to try porting it to the web : P</span>

[15:42:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Such as sgithens here....</span>

[15:42:51 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> true</span>

[15:43:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Still, the world of even traditional web-based IDEs is extremely wild and woolly still</span>

[15:43:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There are several solutions emerging at once, but they are all pretty shaky even at best</span>

[15:43:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is Bespin, which became "ACE"....</span>

[15:43:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is "CodeMirror"</span>

[15:43:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And there is IBM/Eclipse's "Orion"</span>

[15:44:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> All of them are text-based, and all of them have serious issues even just as text-based IDEs, let alone environments that would enable more interesting kinds of structured editing</span>

[15:45:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I worked on a project with CodeMirror recently, and discovered it doesn't even have API support for helping the user to write syntactically correct programs!!</span>

[15:47:05 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> IDE's like Netbean, and Dr.java from Princeton have been quite frustrating as well since it ignores keyboard focus for windows magnifier for those not so blind</span>

[15:47:42 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Almost all of these "baked-in" projects have no concern for accessibility at all</span>

[15:47:54 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So the web represents a really huge opportunity to improve the situation enormously</span>

[15:48:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Especially if we can create a kind of "open architecture" where end users can contribute and share their own accessibility tweaks and "queries"</span>

[15:50:30 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Here's a sample of Raman's writing style : P</span>

[15:50:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> "On this theme, when once challenged by a proponent of a crash-prone but well-marketed mousetrap with the assertion "Emacs is a system from the 70's", the creator of Emacspeak evinced surprise at the unusual candor manifest in the assertion that it would take popular idiot-proven interfaces until the year 2070 to catch up to where the Emacspeak audio desktop is today."</span>

[15:54:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> hah</span>

[15:54:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> nice</span>

[15:55:35 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> the whole thing could be open like how games allow their games to be modded to fit the users preferences. code representations could be open to the user and how they feel it should be represented</span>

[15:55:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> His "auditory icons" idea is pretty interesting</span>

[15:55:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, I think that's a really great analogy</span>

[15:56:04 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> If you've played WoW, for example, you've seen that this "aftermarket" is completely huge</span>

[15:56:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There's a giant bank of keystrokes, icons, and scripts that every expert player comes to rely on</span>

[15:56:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> I have and I did that</span>

[15:57:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> To the extent that if you HAVEN'T customised the game in this way, you can't actually expect to become a top player</span>

[15:57:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> ha, cool</span>

[15:57:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Thankfully I gave up once I got to level 60 <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:57:19 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> made macros to make keystrokes into single icons</span>

[15:57:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But I realised that I was going nowhere in the game unless I was prepared to devote really serious amounts of time to customising it</span>

[15:58:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> ya same</span>

[15:58:34 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But actually, now I'm playing "Skyrim" I am really missing the fact that I used to be able to have quick access to stuff</span>

[15:58:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Although this was essential in a game that wasn't "stoptime"</span>

[15:58:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> and well I think i could contribute to a real world 'guild" right?</span>

[15:59:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But still, Skyrim is clearly designed for the console market, where there ARE no key bindings</span>

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