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[09:56:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: for setting priorities in IoC, can i have a negative priority</span>

[09:56:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> ?</span>

[09:57:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> i think so</span>

[09:57:15 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> thanks.. can i mix that with "last"</span>

[09:57:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> i would step into code though to see what takes precedence</span>

[10:06:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: thanjks</span>

[10:06:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> thanks</span>

[10:10:00 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> yura1: i didn't step through the code, but a quick test looks like last wins</span>

[10:10:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <yura1> cools</span>

[11:49:05 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> hey kasper</span>

[11:49:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> i've made the required changes to the gpii wiki</span>

[12:58:15 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <kasper> avtar - you're a hero!!!</span>

[12:58:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <kasper> thanks a lot</span>

[13:04:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> michelled: Here's a fairly concrete example of schema.org's approach to micro data: <a href="http://schema.org/Person" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://schema.org/Person</a></span>

[13:05:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> Looks to me like the general approach is based on a proposed W3C Microdata spec: <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html</a></span>

[13:06:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: green">* clown toots own horn: <a href="http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/#rna11y.zoom-settings" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/#rna11y.zoom-settings</a></span>

[13:12:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> clown: Yay!</span>

[13:12:36 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> I enjoyed seeing the dialog in Fedora 17 alpha</span>

[13:12:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <colinclark> very nice</span>

[13:15:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <michelled> thx colinclark</span>

[13:40:52 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <avtar> kasper: np</span>

[13:52:02 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Justin_o> fluid-everyone: the community meetings is on now.. yura is talking about node.js</span>

[15:09:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> New to an irc but saw this project at GSoC and wanted to introduce myself</span>

[15:12:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hi travis_84, welcome</span>

[15:13:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Which project(s) are you interested in?</span>

[15:14:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> Hi. Well the whole program itself is awesome, it hits close to home more and more</span>

[15:15:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Glad you like it <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:19:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> but there are quite a few projects I want to help on (GSoC accepted or not). The one within my major is the ATutor chat redesign. But I am going big and studying up on something I tried with voice recognition; "Towards non-visual/accessible programming"</span>

[15:21:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - that's great</span>

[15:21:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I was disappointed there had been so little interest in that project so far, which I am sure is one of the most interesting</span>

[15:23:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> it really is</span>

[15:24:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There's little enough work being done even in alternative visual methods of programming</span>

[15:24:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Most people seemed to get discouraged after the 80s</span>

[15:25:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> especially with touch gestures becoming mainstream, gesture programming with possible voice support sounds possible</span>

[15:25:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> You may be interested in this PhD thesis that was published in 92... <a href="http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/techreports/ucb/text/CSD-93-726.pdf" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/techreports/ucb/text/CSD-93-726.pdf</a></span>

[15:25:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> This guy is now at Oracle, but he is generally discouraged : P</span>

[15:26:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is a little work at Microsoft in using the tablet form factor for some kinds of coding</span>

[15:26:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But it is mostly pretty simplistic stuff which produces lists of rules for actors in games to follow</span>

[15:30:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> hmm, I will add that to my reading lol. I think the first step would be to create a visual language to represent the programming functions and elements?</span>

[15:30:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - it may well be easier to start with some kind of "visual intermediate", yes</span>

[15:30:52 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Especially if you are a sighted user yourself : P</span>

[15:32:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> True, at least once we have a visual context we have a place to start for the hearing only too</span>

[15:32:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Some other people who are interested in the project are Clayton Lewis, a professor here at CU, and T.V. Raman, a blind developer who is a research scientist at Google</span>

[15:33:21 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> In talking to Raman, Clayton noticed an interesting idea he had, in treating elements of a non-visual interface as proxies for "queries" which you could say a sighted user runs automatically</span>

[15:33:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So he saw that Raman had made a system where he could play games like "Bejeweled" by use of these kinds of "queries"</span>

[15:34:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But an important part of the system is that the user could manage and edit this set of queries to suit their own use of the system for a particular task</span>

[15:34:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> wow, Raman sounds like a good person to talk to. thanks</span>

[15:34:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Raman is very cool - although very busy : P</span>

[15:35:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But he's probably the person in the world who knows most about this kind of system in practice, since he has to use them every day</span>

[15:36:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And after this, you could perhaps bind them to hot-keys so you could play the game at a reasonable kind of rate after you got used to it.... "Find the first jewel in the column to the right of the cursor scanning downwards that is blue", for example, could be one of these kinds of queries</span>

[15:36:26 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But you might not be able to find out what kinds of queries you wanted until you had played the game for a bit</span>

[15:37:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, this kind of thing could eventually be the basis of a system for producing "code"... but so far, any work you do on this will be a world first <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:38:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> all this said, i do feel extremely under qualified... I am going for it anyway, I have been self taught and learn fast. This is definitely something I want to be apart of either way</span>

[15:40:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - you are already a world expert on the subject <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:40:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> It will be great to have you involved</span>

[15:40:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, this project of Raman's using "last generation technologies" might have some ideas which can be plundered... <a href="http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/emacspeak.html" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/emacspeak.html</a></span>

[15:42:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But of course emacs is based completely on the idea of streams of text characters as the ultimate abstraction for code... which ultimately isn't going to be good enough</span>

[15:42:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Still, it is in some ways the "Rolls Royce" of editors, and some people feel that it's even a possibly sane approach to try porting it to the web : P</span>

[15:42:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Such as sgithens here....</span>

[15:42:51 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> true</span>

[15:43:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Still, the world of even traditional web-based IDEs is extremely wild and woolly still</span>

[15:43:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There are several solutions emerging at once, but they are all pretty shaky even at best</span>

[15:43:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is Bespin, which became "ACE"....</span>

[15:43:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There is "CodeMirror"</span>

[15:43:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And there is IBM/Eclipse's "Orion"</span>

[15:44:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> All of them are text-based, and all of them have serious issues even just as text-based IDEs, let alone environments that would enable more interesting kinds of structured editing</span>

[15:45:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I worked on a project with CodeMirror recently, and discovered it doesn't even have API support for helping the user to write syntactically correct programs!!</span>

[15:47:05 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> IDE's like Netbean, and Dr.java from Princeton have been quite frustrating as well since it ignores keyboard focus for windows magnifier for those not so blind</span>

[15:47:42 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Almost all of these "baked-in" projects have no concern for accessibility at all</span>

[15:47:54 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So the web represents a really huge opportunity to improve the situation enormously</span>

[15:48:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Especially if we can create a kind of "open architecture" where end users can contribute and share their own accessibility tweaks and "queries"</span>

[15:50:30 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Here's a sample of Raman's writing style : P</span>

[15:50:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> "On this theme, when once challenged by a proponent of a crash-prone but well-marketed mousetrap with the assertion "Emacs is a system from the 70's", the creator of Emacspeak evinced surprise at the unusual candor manifest in the assertion that it would take popular idiot-proven interfaces until the year 2070 to catch up to where the Emacspeak audio desktop is today."</span>

[15:54:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> hah</span>

[15:54:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> nice</span>

[15:55:35 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> the whole thing could be open like how games allow their games to be modded to fit the users preferences. code representations could be open to the user and how they feel it should be represented</span>

[15:55:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> His "auditory icons" idea is pretty interesting</span>

[15:55:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, I think that's a really great analogy</span>

[15:56:04 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> If you've played WoW, for example, you've seen that this "aftermarket" is completely huge</span>

[15:56:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> There's a giant bank of keystrokes, icons, and scripts that every expert player comes to rely on</span>

[15:56:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> I have and I did that</span>

[15:57:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> To the extent that if you HAVEN'T customised the game in this way, you can't actually expect to become a top player</span>

[15:57:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> ha, cool</span>

[15:57:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Thankfully I gave up once I got to level 60 <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[15:57:19 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> made macros to make keystrokes into single icons</span>

[15:57:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But I realised that I was going nowhere in the game unless I was prepared to devote really serious amounts of time to customising it</span>

[15:58:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> ya same</span>

[15:58:34 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But actually, now I'm playing "Skyrim" I am really missing the fact that I used to be able to have quick access to stuff</span>

[15:58:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Although this was essential in a game that wasn't "stoptime"</span>

[15:58:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> and well I think i could contribute to a real world 'guild" right?</span>

[15:59:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But still, Skyrim is clearly designed for the console market, where there ARE no key bindings</span>

[15:59:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Which is showing the kinds of ways that the move towards consoles and tablets is at least temporarily making things hugely worse for unsighted users</span>

[15:59:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I think you really could : P</span>

[16:00:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Another thing Raman is interested in is ways of making touchscreens "audibly responsive"</span>

[16:00:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So that as you brush your finger over them, you get little "bumps and ticks" indicating when you have moved into an area which is active in a certain way</span>

[16:01:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> agreed, with kinect for pc. coding is not limited to that either</span>

[16:01:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> think of a motion based coder</span>

[16:01:39 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> the possibilities, of Tiberium, are limitless! : P</span>

[16:02:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But so far, all things being equal, losing access to keyboards has been a huge loss for most unsighted users</span>

[16:02:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And that input modality is a lifeline to all kinds of other users as well.... those that depend on non-analog "switches and sensors" of various kinds, like puffer switches</span>

[16:04:00 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> eye tracking based communicators</span>

[16:04:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, could be great</span>

[16:04:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Can Kinect do eye tracking?</span>

[16:04:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> sorry excuse me for a sec brb</span>

[16:05:31 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Looks like it can, a bit : P</span>

[16:05:32 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> <a href="http://www.kinecthacks.com/eye-detection-feature-of-kinect/" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://www.kinecthacks.com/eye-detection-feature-of-kinect/</a></span>

[16:20:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> back</span>

[16:22:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> So Bosmon I guess a question I have is what is the expectation of the project?</span>

[16:38:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hi travis_84</span>

[16:38:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Well, it's just a GSoC project (for now!)</span>

[16:38:38 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The expectation is that something reasonable will happen : P</span>

[16:38:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Representing any progress at all on the underlying aims of the project...</span>

[16:39:00 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And hopefully something which might represent a useful basis for future work</span>

[16:39:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> For example, one of the successful GSoC projects of last year, the videoPlayer, had its codebase adopted as the basis of the core Fluid videoPlayer component which we are working on today</span>

[16:40:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Our aim in Fluid is always to build communities, rather than to necessarily achieve particular technical outcomes</span>

[16:40:45 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Although achieving technical outcomes is always helpful : p</span>

[16:41:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> true</span>

[16:41:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Given there is essentially zero work in this field so far, almost anything you achieved would represent a significant outcome <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:42:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> An important area to look at, that we didn't explicitly mention so far, is the world of "dataflow programming" represented by environments like Apple's Quartz Composer, or "Pure Data"</span>

[16:43:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Although these are incredibly immature, they represent the best efforts to date to move programming into a "structural" rather than a "textual" idiom</span>

[16:43:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But a huge amount of this is up to you</span>

[16:44:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> You made decided that moving too far from textual programming would be too much of a leap right now, and you might want to look initially at more web-based equivalents of Raman's "emacspeak"</span>

[16:44:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> You may decide</span>

[16:45:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Or you may like to concentrate on the part of the system that manages the "social inventory", the "marketplace" or what you want to call it for "accessibility queries and solutions"</span>

[16:46:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Here we are with the vague floor plan of what looks like a cathedral of about 120 years work : P</span>

[16:46:38 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> We can start laying the first stones where we like....</span>

[16:47:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Or, more usefully, where we first expect to be able to encourage engagement from others by producing partial solutions which let people get at least some early value</span>

[16:47:35 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> I mean I was thinking say I am able to make a basic "web app" that uses javascript to make or code an html web-page using gesture... is that a significant addition? it is a jump off point at least</span>

[16:47:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> travis_84 - sounds like a great starting point</span>

[16:48:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Even authoring markup is a significantly unsolved problem, even for sighted users with the best technology we have <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:53:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> alright I have a lot of reading to do and need to try and figure out what I am going to say in the proposal, thanks for your insights and for the added motivation and help</span>

[16:53:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> it's great - looking forward to reading it!</span>

[16:53:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Do keep in touch, here or on the mailing list</span>

[16:54:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Hey Bosmon</span>

[16:54:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Just giving your latest checkin's a test <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:54:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Thanks for fixing so quickly btw.</span>

[16:54:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The wikipedia page is already a good jumping off point for resources: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming</a></span>

[16:54:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hey there NickMayne</span>

[16:54:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hope it works out for you</span>

[16:55:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Will let you know in about 1 minute</span>

[16:55:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I found there were a number of timing issues in the 2-editor case, which are hopefully resolved now</span>

[16:55:34 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I gave a demo of the Fluid Inline editing stuff.</span>

[16:55:42 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> That's awesome</span>

[16:55:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> At the Orcahrd CMS Steering committee</span>

[16:55:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Btw, I think it is pretty hilarious that you are in Richmond <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:55:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I grew up about 5 miles away from there</span>

[16:56:58 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <travis_84> Bosmon - alright thanks, i'll be around</span>

[16:57:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Richmond UK?</span>

[16:57:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Certainly!</span>

[16:57:21 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Cool travis_84 - catch you later</span>

[16:57:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Wow.. where abouts did you grow up?</span>

[16:57:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Chessington <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:59:27 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Chessington world of adventures!!</span>

[16:59:28 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[16:59:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Absolutely</span>

[16:59:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Although it was CHESSINGTON ZOO in those days</span>

[16:59:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I remember a SCHOOL TRIP to see the FLAMMINGOES....</span>

[16:59:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> llol</span>

[17:00:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Works perfectly btw Bosmon!</span>

[17:01:21 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> That's splendid!</span>

[17:01:38 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I noticed there was a remaining error last night if you start a 2nd edit before finishing a 1st one</span>

[17:02:04 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> If you tried to "cancel on blur" only the first one would cancel</span>

[17:02:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> but this turned out to be yet more offensive iframe-based malarky</span>

[17:02:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <codercube> are mentors online? should I submit a proposal on the GSoC website, or should I send it at first to the atutor email?</span>

[17:02:31 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> codercube - I think it's cool to submit on the website</span>

[17:02:39 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> You can edit it their later if you have some further ideas</span>

[17:03:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Ah yes, I noticed some wierd Save, cancel, save etc issues too</span>

[17:03:38 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <codercube> Bosmon : thanks</span>

[17:03:45 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> They seem to be fixed now whcih is awesome <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:04:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I have one or two more issues, would you prefer I log them in the issue tracker?</span>

[17:07:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> NickMayne - definitely</span>

[17:07:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Did you manage to get an account?</span>

[17:07:49 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> No</span>

[17:07:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I'm not sure how our JIRA is working at the moment</span>

[17:08:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> We are in a bit of a state of infrastructure flux right now</span>

[17:08:12 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Oh right</span>

[17:08:19 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> just out of interest</span>

[17:08:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The guy to talk to is named "avtar"</span>

[17:08:26 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> The Fluid group</span>

[17:08:31 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, them</span>

[17:08:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> are you all working at universitys?</span>

[17:09:01 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Or are you just a group of guys working on this in your free time?</span>

[17:09:27 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> ha</span>

[17:09:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The majority of the Fluid team is based at OCAD in Toronto, the Ontario College of Art and Design</span>

[17:09:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But like the Black Bank, we have branches everywhere : P</span>

[17:10:05 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> lol</span>

[17:10:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Personally I am sitting in a basement in Boulder Colorado...</span>

[17:10:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But we have a number of collaborators in Europe and across the US too</span>

[17:10:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Thats very cool, I wondered how the team was made up</span>

[17:11:01 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> <a href="https://orchardinlineediting.codeplex.com/" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">https://orchardinlineediting.codeplex.com/</a></span>

[17:11:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> How did your demo go?</span>

[17:11:19 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Thats where I have published the Orchard Module for inline enditing.</span>

[17:11:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> editing*</span>

[17:14:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Demo went well</span>

[17:14:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> One developer on the Core Orchard team doesnt want it</span>

[17:14:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> he wants more of a modal editor</span>

[17:14:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> that sits above the content.</span>

[17:15:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Well, he is clearly a rotter</span>

[17:15:35 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> haha, well he has a big say....</span>

[17:15:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> No user enjoys a modal interface</span>

[17:15:43 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, sadly developers often too <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:15:53 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> As we characterised on your first visit : P</span>

[17:15:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I know I know..</span>

[17:15:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> well</span>

[17:16:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> What he talked about was the way Drupal currently does it</span>

[17:16:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Sure</span>

[17:16:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Developers usually just do these things through sheer laziness</span>

[17:16:32 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And in the end the laziness becomes enshrined as a "standard"</span>

[17:16:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> It's why Windows became full of 1300 little dialogue boxes</span>

[17:17:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Fair point.</span>

[17:17:09 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Writing a modal interaction, as a developer, guarantees that you never need to THINK <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:17:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> one other thing that came up was another dependency on a 3rd party</span>

[17:17:47 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Sure, well</span>

[17:17:54 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> If you don't like the way we are going, just fork our code <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:18:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> They felt nervous that it was a patch upgrade.</span>

[17:18:11 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> As you saw, you could patch up the stuff relatively easily to take care of things you didn't like</span>

[17:18:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I told them, nothing to worry about for the time being</span>

[17:18:24 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Well, it's a fair worry</span>

[17:18:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> you can be pretty sure that i) this stuff will be getting into our next release, and ii) that we will still be here some years from now : P</span>

[17:18:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Well.. I said that the support I have had from the Fluid community has been second to none which is one of the key thinks i look for in a 3rd party module</span>

[17:19:22 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> They understand that</span>

[17:20:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I also said that I have only really worked on this module (functionality) for about 5-6 hours</span>

[17:20:39 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Thanks for the reasurance Bosmon <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:20:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I found a picture of my father in Richmond Park : P</span>

[17:20:41 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/antranig2/7025104505/in/photostream/lightbox/" class="external-link" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/antranig2/7025104505/in/photostream/lightbox/</a></span>

[17:20:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> As recently as 2006...</span>

[17:20:56 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Wow</span>

[17:21:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, how did you get to OrchardCMS from the ITV?</span>

[17:21:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Are they related projects?</span>

[17:21:51 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Or just a bit of moonlighting? : P</span>

[17:21:55 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> lol</span>

[17:22:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I do Orchard CMS in my freetime</span>

[17:22:46 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> One thing I think the Orchard team and the Fluid team agreed on BTW was that clicking on content to edit is not that user friendly, it should be an edit button... <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:22:54 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I also moonlight as well <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:23:02 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> wow</span>

[17:23:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The traditional busy life of the "quick starter" : P</span>

[17:23:21 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:23:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, certainly for rich text, "click to edit" is just confusing</span>

[17:23:31 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> yup</span>

[17:23:33 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The primary function of the content has to be to act as content</span>

[17:24:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> People are used to the "sectional edit link" idiom from Wikipedia already</span>

[17:24:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Yeah, they also said that it would be impossible to click a link once signed in!</span>

[17:25:23 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> The rich text integrations are currently one of the darker corners of the framework, firstly because of the difficulty of writing worthwhile unit tests, and secondly because we haven't actively used them in a project for a while</span>

[17:25:30 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But actually a big content-based project is coming up shortly</span>

[17:25:48 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> We are working with "Open Educational Resources" in a drupal-based system starting this week</span>

[17:25:50 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> really?</span>

[17:26:01 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> And Orchard CMS of course <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:26:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So the Inline Edit infrastructure is probably due for some loving attention before long</span>

[17:26:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Well, at the moment we have to work with the CMS the partners put together already : P</span>

[17:26:40 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But one of the core aims of Fluid is for "everyone to get their cake"</span>

[17:27:04 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> it should always be possible to configure our components to get whatever integration or behaviour you require, without hacking on the core code or monkey-patching it</span>

[17:27:06 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Thats why I chose it!</span>

[17:27:18 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> choose*</span>

[17:27:44 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But the InlineEdit base is some of our oldest code, which dates from before we constructed our IoC system starting in 2009</span>

[17:27:59 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So there is still a lot of manual tinkering with adding listeners required, etc.</span>

[17:28:07 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Are you going to look to overhual it?</span>

[17:28:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> overhaul*</span>

[17:28:15 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> In time, yes</span>

[17:28:26 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> We've got a huge number of other priorities ahead of that</span>

[17:28:39 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Most of our day-to-day work this year is on our UIOptions and videoPlayer components</span>

[17:29:25 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And the IoC system itself isn't yet stable enough to justify a wholesale rewrite of already working code</span>

[17:29:31 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But it will come in time</span>

[17:29:37 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> understandable</span>

[17:30:02 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> I guess some work will be done on it with your educational cms project though right?</span>

[17:30:27 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Yes, it seems like we will certainly be using the "simple inline edit" configuration within the next week</span>

[17:30:39 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Since the inline edit put together by the partners wasn't sufficiently accessible</span>

[17:30:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> And I expect some time in the next couple of months we will have to look at the rich content authoring problem again</span>

[17:31:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> But currently we are working towards a demo that needs to be shown in about 2 weeks</span>

[17:31:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Fair enough, are you going to look at upgrading jquery etc at the same time?</span>

[17:31:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Fair enough <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:31:32 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Certainly, yes</span>

[17:31:45 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Thankfully the problems with the current upgrade look extremely minor</span>

[17:31:52 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Nothing like what we went through with the jQuery 1.6 debacle</span>

[17:32:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> There are issues with the ToolTip stuff</span>

[17:32:08 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Hopefully they learned their lesson after that....</span>

[17:32:14 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Ah cool</span>

[17:32:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> hence why I turned it off<ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:32:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Good to know</span>

[17:32:29 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Should really get you a JIRA account</span>

[17:32:51 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Were there even instructions for you for someone to mail?</span>

[17:32:57 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Please do, I dont mind logging issues <ac:emoticon ac:name="smile" /></span>

[17:34:16 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> yeah they said ping you guys on IRC to get an account</span>

[17:34:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> hehe</span>

[17:37:03 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> Sure...</span>

[17:37:10 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> I'll send a mail to avtar to get it sorted out</span>

[17:37:17 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Cool thanks</span>

[17:37:20 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> All of our servers are being upgraded and moved right now so there's a lot goin gon</span>

[17:37:58 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Its cool, im in no rush, lots of other stuff I could be working on aorund this code</span>

[17:38:13 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <Bosmon> So, do you hang out in Richmond Park much? : P</span>

[17:39:02 CDT(-0500)] <span style="color: black"> <NickMayne> Na, go for a run there occasionally</span>

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